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Post by destclev on Jul 4, 2011 20:43:47 GMT -8
I recall that on the last rewind, during the storyline in which
spoiler
Jill gets addicted to prescription painkillers after the accident at the beachhouse, there was discussion of how "realistic" the portrayal of her physical pain was. There was a similar debate during the time when Ken George Jones was dying of cancer, a time when he was supposed to be in great pain but didn't really seem so.
Watching Michael Levin play Jack for the past several weeks, I've been struck by how realistically they tried to play it here. It was agonizing to watch Jack lie there in physical torment day after day, watch him flinch in anticipation that Mary merely might touch the bed. It struck me that it was probably merciful that we were spared this approach more often than not.
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Post by Echo on Jul 5, 2011 2:50:24 GMT -8
Michael Levin did an excellent job, portraying a man in terrible pain. If I were Mary I would have thought about HIS feelings. How he was suffering, instead of her wounded ego, that he was not up to engaging in 'pleasant' conversation, did not want to talk/visit. (Maeve even had to tell her he was not up to 'chit chatting'!!) Yet Mary gets miffed at Jack! I was impressed with Jack's extreme self control, to go to another place in his head, and not feel the pain. A place beyond the pain. Very disciplined of Jack, he worked very hard to do that, no doubt about it, yet Mary just said something like 'that's nice', when he shared how he was attempting to manage his pain, with her. (Now Siobhan would have REALLY gotten that, and had deep respect and admiration for Jack. As I do, for the character of Jack that is.  That is the only problem I have with this SL, Mary Ryan's insensitivity to Jack's pain. Mary's attitude is why sit with Jack? Why read to him? Or just sit in companionable silence, (maybe the most important thing she could have done for him), so he could just know she is there, with him. When she could go out to dinner at Lem's with Alex? (sorry for sarcasm.) I find Mary's irritation to Jack's condition(s), hard to watch. -Echo- |
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carol
Johnny's Best Irish
Posts: 145
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Post by carol on Jul 5, 2011 5:41:10 GMT -8
You have to remember how young Mary is. She is SO young....and she's been catered to and supported to the nth degree by her family all her life. (Not a bad thing...but....I think she's lived a more or less sheltered existence as she grew up. And that's not really a bad thing, either.) But that is her reality.
Jack is so much older. Mary is still a kid. But she's growing up fast.
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carol
Johnny's Best Irish
Posts: 145
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Post by carol on Jul 5, 2011 13:02:09 GMT -8
Is your topic heading borrowed from C.S. Lewis? =)
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Post by destclev on Jul 5, 2011 13:23:39 GMT -8
Is your topic heading borrowed from C.S. Lewis? =) |
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Post by raggedycheryl512 on Jul 5, 2011 14:00:02 GMT -8
I was impressed with Jack's extreme self control, to go to another place in his head, and not feel the pain. A place beyond the pain. Very disciplined of Jack, he worked very hard to do that, no doubt about it, yet Mary just said something like 'that's nice', when he shared how he was attempting to manage his pain, with her. (Now Siobhan would have REALLY gotten that, and had deep respect and admiration for Jack. As I do, for the character of Jack that is. There's something special about the character of Jack, and I'm not even sure that the writers knew what they were doing when they gave him character, insight, high intelligence, etc. He's doing a sort of Eastern meditation here, and no one is really impressed with that. I think we are supposed to see Jack through the filter of the Ryans, so everything he does is somehow "damaged" or "troubled." Mary constantly talks about his bad moods (even before this accident) and how he's a loner, etc. He's considered a Ryan, and the "Fenelli" part of him is just an after-thought. He doesn't get credit for his ideas or his integrity. When the baby is born, Mary could have named her after Jack's mother. SPOILER IN BEIGE: Jack once again gets roaring drunk but does come to the hospital to see the newborn. It would have touched his heart, and given him the courage to reunite with Mary and the baby, saving another 6 months of tsurris. But naming her "Ryan" was exactly the wrong thing to do. |
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Post by destclev on Jul 5, 2011 14:11:33 GMT -8
There's something special about the character of Jack, and I'm not even sure that the writers knew what they were doing when they gave him character, insight, high intelligence, etc. He's doing a sort of Eastern meditation here, and no one is really impressed with that.
Finally, it bothers me enormously that almost every single disagreement between Mary and Jack is resolved by Jack admitting that Mary was right and he was wrong. This pattern is well established and will continue uninterrupted pretty much till the day she
spoiler
dies.
To tell the truth, I'm just about to the point where I don't even believe it anymore when Jack says how much he loves Mary. It doesn't make sense to me anymore; it isn't credible. I can see him loving and respecting and cherishing Siobhan, who after all will later introduce him to yoga. But Mary? To me, it's all hormones between those two, no matter how much they all natter on about Jack's emotional insecurity and the way Mary provides the perfect antidote. |
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Post by jwinks on Jul 5, 2011 16:35:44 GMT -8
I think the writers knew exactly what they were doing
slowly letting the viewers see that the true male hero of the show was Jack
that became apparent more and more over the years
they were smart enough to reveal this to us slowly in a nuanced delivery
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Post by gladrags on Jul 5, 2011 16:47:12 GMT -8
Finally, it bothers me enormously that almost every single disagreement between Mary and Jack is resolved by Jack admitting that Mary was right and he was wrong. This pattern is well established and will continue uninterrupted pretty much till the day she spoiler dies. On that day, Mary was indeed right and Jack was wrong. Warning ... continuing the spoiler discussion ... Seeing as Siobhan is even more emotionally insecure than Jack, more self-centered and more brutally forthright than Mary, Siobhan and Jack in the long run would have been a disaster. Thank goodness it never happened. |
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carol
Johnny's Best Irish
Posts: 145
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Post by carol on Jul 5, 2011 18:50:09 GMT -8
To me, Jack and Mary....are incomprehensible.
DeStClev: I've long been an Inklings fan. =)
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Post by destclev on Jul 5, 2011 19:13:36 GMT -8
Finally, it bothers me enormously that almost every single disagreement between Mary and Jack is resolved by Jack admitting that Mary was right and he was wrong. This pattern is well established and will continue uninterrupted pretty much till the day she spoiler dies. On that day, Mary was indeed right and Jack was wrong.
spoiler
Jack had just honestly answered some questions. He acknowledged that he'd been tempted with Siobhan, but hadn't succumbed. Mary, for her part, was devastated and accepted no part in creating the situation in which Jack grew close to Siobhan. Understand that I'm not arguing that Mary's complete immersion in her work gave Jack permission to fall in love with someone else, but the fact is that she had all but abandoned him emotionally, even in a difficult, trying time for him (the loss of his job). And when the situation came to a head, Jack admitted his fault and took a big slice of responsibility, while Mary was stricken and admitted nothing, took no responsibility.
And Mary was right that day and Jack wrong? Not in my book.
Saying all this, of course, with respect. We don't all need to agree. |
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Post by destclev on Jul 5, 2011 19:21:06 GMT -8
Seeing as Siobhan is even more emotionally insecure than Jack, more self-centered and more brutally forthright than Mary, Siobhan and Jack in the long run would have been a disaster. Thank goodness it never happened. Siobhan more self centered than Mary? Wow, I'm thinking we're watching two different shows. Siobhan was always there for Jack when he needed her. And she didn't turn every discussion of his needs and problems around to a discussion of her own. Siobhan and Jack were the true soulmates, not Mary and Jack. Mary and Jack were, at bottom, about sex, chemistry. The rest was window dressing. By contrast, Siobhan and Jack were deeply, truly in love without so much as exchanging one kiss. I do agree with Siobhan was brutally forthright and Mary wasn't. But Siobhan was able to accept equal forthrightness on the part of others. Mary never did. Whenever Mary found out that Jack disagreed with her about something important, she had a single mission in life -- to bring him around to her point of view. Not very admirable, in my view. [/font] |
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Post by destclev on Jul 5, 2011 19:28:09 GMT -8
To me, Jack and Mary....are incomprehensible. DeStClev: I've long been an Inklings fan. =)
In any case, it was outstanding to have that allusion recognized! Thanks for posting about it. I hope to hear more from you in the future! |
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Post by Echo on Jul 5, 2011 20:48:15 GMT -8
You have to remember how young Mary is. She is SO young....and she's been catered to and supported to the nth degree by her family all her life. (Not a bad thing...but....I think she's lived a more or less sheltered existence as she grew up. And that's not really a bad thing, either.) But that is her reality. Jack is so much older. Mary is still a kid. But she's growing up fast. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Carol, I totally respect your point of view.  I am just seeing this situation from a different one. I don't think Mary is all that young. She is not a teenager, she is an adult. Around the age she is now, I spent a lot of time visiting relatives who were in their older years, and they so appreciated me being their. I married at 24 and I can tell you for certain, if my husband had been in the situation Jack was in, I would have held vigil at his side,and when he needed space, there I would have been with a pile of books in the lobby, or a lounge!! I also come from a very close knit family, as fictional Mary does, and was very supportived, in all ways. We were all there for each other. That would never ever negate having compassion for a loved one who is seriously ailing, as Jack is. I just don't see Mary as being as compassionate as she could be. JMO. -Echo- |
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Post by Echo on Jul 5, 2011 21:14:48 GMT -8
I was impressed with Jack's extreme self control, to go to another place in his head, and not feel the pain. A place beyond the pain. Very disciplined of Jack, he worked very hard to do that, no doubt about it, yet Mary just said something like 'that's nice', when he shared how he was attempting to manage his pain, with her. (Now Siobhan would have REALLY gotten that, and had deep respect and admiration for Jack. As I do, for the character of Jack that is. There's something special about the character of Jack, and I'm not even sure that the writers knew what they were doing when they gave him character, insight, high intelligence, etc. He's doing a sort of Eastern meditation here, and no one is really impressed with that. I think we are supposed to see Jack through the filter of the Ryan's, so everything he does is somehow "damaged" or "troubled." Mary constantly talks about his bad moods (even before this accident) and how he's a loner, etc. He's considered a Ryan, and the "Fenelli" part of him is just an after-thought. He doesn't get credit for his ideas or his integrity. When the baby is born, Mary could have named her after Jack's mother. SPOILER IN BEIGE: Jack once again gets roaring drunk but does come to the hospital to see the newborn. It would have touched his heart, and given him the courage to reunite with Mary and the baby, saving another 6 months of tsurris. But naming her "Ryan" was exactly the wrong thing to do. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ITA Cheryl. Jack is a complex man with many nuances and inner strengths that Mary stifles. As you said, his choice to use Eastern meditation was quite evolved. Yet Mary, as she is supposed to be so intelligent, had no interest in questioning Jack about this. Where he learned of it, how it works, how it works for him, I should say. No, Mary holds Jack to the 'Ryan standards', and in the process, this feeds Jack's resentment. So much of his anger, that he works to keep in check, was instigated by Mary's forcing her family ways on him. I dated a guy who was a writer(screenplays), and he was moody, reclusive some of the time and he was/is absolutely charming! An intriguing conversationalist. (happy to say we're still friends). I see Jack as this kind of man. Unfortunately I see Mary and Jack as incompatible. She is as different from Jack as one can be, and not in the 'opposites attract' kind of way. But extremely different outlooks on life, different value systems, (although both are moral people). Just too different. And neither one should have to compromise to the point of misery. If Mary had not been written off the show, I couldn't imaging them staying together. Siobhan sees the world more as Jack does. She 'got' him, how he thought, how he liked to live, etc. If Ryan's Hope were airing today, Jack would be the 'cool' evolved man, and Mary would be seen as stifling, and imo, closed minded. JMO, of course. (as that's how I seem them back in 1976. -Echo- |
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Post by gladrags on Jul 6, 2011 3:42:32 GMT -8
Siobhan more self centered than Mary? Wow, I'm thinking we're watching two different shows. Whatever. Siobhan's actions were always about her, calling attention to her. She's really not all that unlike Delia. Siobhan was all about what she wanted. She wanted to work at a family planning organization and flaunted it in her parents' face. She wanted to help with the rent strike even though it put both her and her family in physical danger. She wanted to get involved with Joe, despite his background and once again putting her family in danger ... and we all know the consequences of that selfish act. She wanted her sister's husband ... Excuse me while I hurl. Jack did not love Siobhan as anything more than a sister. |
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Post by destclev on Jul 6, 2011 3:44:54 GMT -8
Siobhan more self centered than Mary? Wow, I'm thinking we're watching two different shows. Whatever. Siobhan's actions were always about her, calling attention to her. She's really not all that unlike Delia. Siobhan was all about what she wanted. She wanted to work at a family planning organization and flaunted it in her parents' face. She wanted to help with the rent strike even though it put both her and her family in physical danger. She wanted to get involved with Joe, despite his background and once again putting her family in danger ... and we all know the consequences of that selfish act. She wanted her sister's husband ... Excuse me while I hurl. Jack did not love Siobhan as anything more than a sister. |
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Post by gladrags on Jul 6, 2011 3:46:15 GMT -8
Whatever. Siobhan's actions were always about her, calling attention to her. She's really not all that unlike Delia. Siobhan was all about what she wanted. She wanted to work at a family planning organization and flaunted it in her parents' face. She wanted to help with the rent strike even though it put both her and her family in physical danger. She wanted to get involved with Joe, despite his background and once again putting her family in danger ... and we all know the consequences of that selfish act. She wanted her sister's husband ... Excuse me while I hurl. Jack did not love Siobhan as anything more than a sister. No matter how skewed others' may be. |
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Post by jwinks on Jul 6, 2011 6:09:13 GMT -8
To each her own perceptions. No matter how skewed others' may be. Wow. |
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Post by destclev on Jul 6, 2011 7:53:27 GMT -8
No matter how skewed others' may be. Wow. |
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Dec 6, 2021 13:11:49 GMT -8