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Post by dustygal on Jul 6, 2011 10:16:24 GMT -8
when all the "good news" was being shared in the Ryan living room??? I mean all the talk about Mary's pregnancy....Jills pregnancy and everything else?? I know later on Pat comes in and she's in the bedroom but that was supposedly hours later~I mean for a woman that has practically wore a hole in the hallway floor from eavesdropping, she sure missed it! Dusty
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Post by forte on Jul 6, 2011 14:28:03 GMT -8
Yes, her radar was way off today. She could have hit the jackpot, especially since Frank said something to the judge about how he and Jill were faithful to each other (although how he could claim that when he was sleeping with Jill and his wife confuses me.) Ann Burney would have been all over that.
Did anyone else immediately think of post partum depression when Frank was talking about Dee being bedridden after giving birth? I kept waiting for Ann Burney to ask why Frank didn't try to get his wife some professional help (I don't think post partum was well-known or even accepted at the time, but the other things he described clearly required some professional help) since he was so convinced for so long that she was unstable and unsafe for his son. When you look at it, all he did was pawn her off on his parents. Jill better hope she never is less than strong and stable when she's with Frank.
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Post by fairplay28 on Jul 6, 2011 14:32:46 GMT -8
It sounded a lot like PPD. Frank was so quick to believe that Delia was lazy and selfish. I found it disturbing, actually.
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Post by forte on Jul 6, 2011 14:41:20 GMT -8
And yet it was the reality for women for hundreds of years. All blame and no understanding that it is a medical condition.
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Post by Mr. Schmoe on Jul 6, 2011 14:42:24 GMT -8
It sounded a lot like PPD. Frank was so quick to believe that Delia was lazy and selfish. I found it disturbing, actually. One era's "lazy & selfish" is the next era's named mental illness/condition.
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Post by forte on Jul 6, 2011 14:44:15 GMT -8
Just another example of how society can grow in both education and compassion when we try.
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Post by jwinks on Jul 6, 2011 15:28:15 GMT -8
It sounded a lot like PPD. Frank was so quick to believe that Delia was lazy and selfish. I found it disturbing, actually. It sounded like post partum depression to me also however, Delia WAS lazy and selfish the two are not mutually exclusive ;D
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Post by raggedycheryl512 on Jul 6, 2011 15:29:46 GMT -8
It sounded a lot like PPD. Frank was so quick to believe that Delia was lazy and selfish. I found it disturbing, actually. It sounded like post partum depression to me also however, Delia WAS lazy and selfish the two are not mutually exclusive ;D Yeah, I'm lazy and selfish and I've never even been pregnant.
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Post by forte on Jul 6, 2011 15:31:09 GMT -8
{{the two are not mutually exclusive ;D}}
Excellent point! I vote All of the Above.
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Post by originalbunnymom on Jul 6, 2011 17:02:40 GMT -8
It sounded a lot like PPD. Frank was so quick to believe that Delia was lazy and selfish. I found it disturbing, actually. One era's "lazy & selfish" is the next era's named mental illness/condition. So glad your pregnancy(s) were picture perfect! Really? You have no scars? What a relief!
How's that testosterone working for you?
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Post by bethp0201 on Jul 6, 2011 17:11:54 GMT -8
Yes, her radar was way off today. She could have hit the jackpot, especially since Frank said something to the judge about how he and Jill were faithful to each other (although how he could claim that when he was sleeping with Jill and his wife confuses me.) Ann Burney would have been all over that.
Did anyone else immediately think of post partum depression when Frank was talking about Dee being bedridden after giving birth? I kept waiting for Ann Burney to ask why Frank didn't try to get his wife some professional help (I don't think post partum was well-known or even accepted at the time, but the other things he described clearly required some professional help) since he was so convinced for so long that s he was unstable and unsafe for his son. When you look at it, all he did was pawn her off on his parents. Jill better hope she never is less than strong and stable when she's with Frank. I thought the same thing, (about the post partum) and never remember thinking that before! It was not as understood then , they called it the "baby blues". You had to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, what ever they were! LOL about Jill, but of course that was the old Frank, I'm sure this new one will be much nicer!
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Post by dustygal on Jul 7, 2011 2:43:01 GMT -8
I do not remember "post-partum depression" as being a recognized medical condition back in the 70's. My son was born in 1974 and I suffered horribly from depression. I thought it was because my labor and delivery (and pregnancy) were a nightmare. I can remember everyone telling me I just needed a routine and a schedule...I just couldn't seem to manage everything. I thought it was because my son was 2 months premature...but, looking back on it...it may have been depression.
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Post by fairplay28 on Jul 7, 2011 8:46:10 GMT -8
Andrew Robinson as Frank did a very good job sounding critical of and morally superior to Dee. He didn't complain about her housekeeping prior to the birth, yet he was ready to jump to the conclusion that she was lazy.Because his own mother was so competent, and because he expects things to go his way, it never dawned on him that a new mother, especially someone as fragile as Dee, might be overwhelmed and need help and emotional support.
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Post by destclev on Jul 7, 2011 9:41:27 GMT -8
Andrew Robinson as Frank did a very good job sounding critical of and morally superior to Dee. He didn't complain about her housekeeping prior to the birth, yet he was ready to jump to the conclusion that she was lazy.Because his own mother was so competent, and because he expects things to go his way, it never dawned on him that a new mother, especially someone as fragile as Dee, might be overwhelmed and need help and emotional support. In Frank's defense, "lazy and selfish" were the judge's words, not his. Plus, I'll bet the apartment was just as much of a mess before the baby, but after the baby was the only time frame being discussed here. If there was no change in Delia's behavior (and really, does any of us think she ever kept a neat, tidy house or prepared meals on a consistent basis?*), then in Frank's mind this would've been just more of the same, but with a baby added to the mix.
* Why was it her responsibility, not Frank's, to take care of the house and meals? Because that was her choice. She wanted to be a wife, not have a career.
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Post by safeandsound on Jul 7, 2011 10:14:44 GMT -8
Along with watching LJ a few times a week, Mrs. Shaw also did shopping for Frank and Dee and also cleaned around Frank and Dee's apartment. I pictured this early version of Mrs. Shaw as a neighborhood lady -- and since her family was grown and she loved children -- she helped out other young families. (We had one of those wonderful women in my neighborhood when I was a young mother.)
When Mrs. Shaw finally appeared on screen in 1981 -- she seemed like some formal nurse they found through an agency. She didn't want to watch Arley because she was only hired to watch LJ. That Mrs. Shaw would not have cleaned and shopped.
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Post by fairplay28 on Jul 7, 2011 10:46:44 GMT -8
You are correct, Frank, to his credit did not use the words lazy and selfish. The judge asked if Dee's behavior had gone beyond selfish or careless, but exhibited an emerging pattern of instability.
While Frank never described the state of their home before the baby at this hearing, we do know from other accounts that she was neglecting the home to get even with him for being with Jill. Still he didn't seem to think it was just more of the same.
He said she got much worse after the baby was born. He noted that she had been excited about taking care of a baby, but once it was born she couldn't even get up the energy to give him a bottle. He thought she would get her energy back but it didn't happen and in fact he often found the baby having cried himself to sleep, and Dee the same. His explanation was that the baby brought out her childish instincts.
He also said that Ma and his sisters (which sister? Mary, we've never seen that and Siobhan and Kathleen were out of town, weren't they?) began giving her a hand. In big ethnic families, the girl's mother usually helps out when a baby is born. Since Dee's mother was dead, it was only right that Ma would step in, especially as Frank really wouldn't have had time to do much what with his job and school.
In 1967 I worked for an agency that supplied two weeks of a home health aid after the birth of a baby to women whose families had been victims of the holocaust and who didn't have a mother or aunt to turn to.
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Post by destclev on Jul 7, 2011 11:13:51 GMT -8
You are correct, Frank, to his credit did not use the words lazy and selfish. The judge asked if Dee's behavior had gone beyond selfish or careless, but exhibited an emerging pattern of instability.
While Frank never described the state of their home before the baby at this hearing, we do know from other accounts that she was neglecting the home to get even with him for being with Jill. Still he didn't seem to think it was just more of the same.
He said she got much worse after the baby was born. He noted that she had been excited about taking care of a baby, but once it was born she couldn't even get up the energy to give him a bottle. He thought she would get her energy back but it didn't happen and in fact he often found the baby having cried himself to sleep, and Dee the same. His explanation was that the baby brought out her childish instincts.
He also said that Ma and his sisters (which sister? Mary, we've never seen that and Siobhan and Kathleen were out of town, weren't they?) began giving her a hand. In big ethnic families, the girl's mother usually helps out when a baby is born. Since Dee's mother was dead, it was only right that Ma would step in, especially as Frank really wouldn't have had time to do much what with his job and school.
In 1967 I worked for an agency that supplied two weeks of a home health aid after the birth of a baby to women whose families had been victims of the holocaust and who didn't have a mother or aunt to turn to.
I wouldn't want to defend Frank in any of this, and I did think it was very odd that Frank's sisters were said to have helped much, but even though all that is true, we still know that what he is describing -- the unwillingness to take responsibility, to pitch in, to work -- is characteristic of Delia at almost all times, in all phases of her life. In fact, her innate allergy to work is why she ended up with the Crystal Palace. She did not want to go get a job; in fact, she was aghast at the prospect. She wanted a life of ease and importance. Hard to see full-time care of a baby fitting into that model.
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Post by forte on Jul 7, 2011 13:37:24 GMT -8
{{In 1967 I worked for an agency that supplied two weeks of a home health aid after the birth of a baby to women whose families had been victims of the holocaust and who didn't have a mother or aunt to turn to.}}
What a great thing to have done! I had never thought about this before, but these women really didn't have anyone to turn to, did they? How wonderful that this program existed to help to fill that need and what an amazing experience it must have been to be a part of it. Good for you.
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Post by fairplay28 on Jul 7, 2011 14:07:12 GMT -8
She wanted a life of ease and importance. Hard to see full-time care of a baby fitting into that model. If that's all she wanted she would have married Roger, who was offering her exactly that.
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Post by Fia on Jul 7, 2011 14:15:49 GMT -8
She wanted a life of ease and importance. Hard to see full-time care of a baby fitting into that model. If that's all she wanted she would have married Roger, who was offering her exactly that. And, in fact....SPOILERshe does!
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